Manu Sai Bakshe: "Even after eight months being really successful in my job, I was actually given a pink sheet that you'll be fired in four weeks. A lot of the phone calls were not being returned anymore. It was not you all the time. It was the seat that you were in." *[laughter]*

Manu Sai Bakshe: "My dad was fired from his job. Financially, we had a very tough time. That sort of drove me, even at a very young age, to be an entrepreneur."

Ilana Golan, host of the Leap Academy Podcast: "Tell me about the first clients, because sometimes that's really hard, right? There's stress and, can I do this, and can I survive on this? Take me there for a second. What were some hard moments, Manu, that shook you a little bit? And what did they teach you?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Think about this as an agent. Be the Jerry Maguire. Absolutely love what you do and truly help people without expecting something in return."

Ilana Golan, host of the Leap Academy Podcast: "What on earth is this role that makes millions of dollars? But what taught you this? Usually there's a moment that needed to teach us to be like this."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "No, I think the best advice I would say is..."

Ilana Golan, host of the Leap Academy Podcast: "Let's dive in. Manu Sai Bakshe is the founder and CEO of Preeminence Advisors, a search firm he built to help multi-billion-dollar hedge funds hire their top portfolio managers. He built such a reputation that he works directly with the founders and senior leaders of the world's top funds, and the portfolio managers he brings can make such a big difference to a fund that they can earn way above a million a year. In fact, it's anywhere between mid-seven figures and, in strong years, can be even eight figures plus. Now, how does an immigrant from India break through to work with the top hedge funds in the world? And why do they trust him to take their calls? And what does he look for in candidates? And why would a firm pay someone millions of dollars a year? Amazing. It's going to be such a fun conversation. Get ready for a fascinating conversation."

Ilana Golan: "Manu, so good to see you."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Good to see you, Ilana. It's been a while."

Ilana Golan: "So fun. And just before, I need to remind the listeners: at the end of the conversation, I select a question from our Leap Academy with Ilana Golan YouTube channel. So first of all, go there and put in your questions—anything about your career—and we have a chance to take your question and answer it live here on the show. So today, a question came from Robin, who asked, 'How do you keep going when you feel defeated?' What a beautiful question, and I will absolutely address it at the end of the conversation. So be sure to stick around and share this episode with anyone who needs to hear this today. So let's dive in. Manu, oh my God, so fun. So, so, so fun. But we're going to have to start with something very simple, because assume that nobody in my listeners understands what a hedge fund is—most people don't understand what it is. What is a hedge fund? What is that?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Well, a hedge fund is essentially an investment firm that runs multiple strategies—whether it's equities, credit, systematic trading—under one platform with good risk controls, to generate great returns for the clients, for what they're managing money for. That's really what a hedge fund is essentially, right?"

Ilana Golan: "So maybe for somebody who is really new to investment—and correct me if I'm wrong—the regular investment funds are like the bus, right? They have one route. They usually buy stocks and they wait for it to grow, and everybody's kind of going in the same direction. And a hedge fund is like a sports car—they try to make money no matter what direction the market is going. Am I understanding this correctly?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "I mean, multi-strat funds are market neutral, so they generate revenue no matter what the environment is."

Ilana Golan: "So what is the difference—first of all, before we dive in to what a portfolio manager is and how you got into these hedge funds—what is roughly the difference? I think there's only institutions and billionaires and family offices that really are involved. Tell us a little bit about what the difference is."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "A family office is managing money for a large family. A wealthy individual will have his own family office. A hedge fund is managing money for multiple clients—a lot of times institutional clients, right? It could also be high-net-worth individuals who invest in a hedge fund. Then they charge a fee for their performance. Now, that can also be varied, and that's public knowledge. Some hedge funds have high fees—some of the highest fees—because they generate stellar returns for the clients. So that's really a simple, vanilla answer."

Ilana Golan: "And before we dive in, just for the people listening—is it roughly, I know they vary, but is it roughly like venture capital: two percent of assets annually, twenty percent of profit? Is this roughly a ballpark?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Twenty can be lower in some cases, a lot higher, yes."

Ilana Golan: "Okay. So now that we roughly understand what a hedge fund is—it's basically an institution that makes a lot of really risky investment, a lot of money, in the general sense. But take us back in time. You moved to the US from India. You didn't have any experience in hedge funds, right? When you just moved. So take us back in time to your career. What were your first jobs here in the US? How was it?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Sure. So I arrived late '05. I had a degree in human resources. I worked for IBM, and I was looking for a job in human resources in New York City. I had a couple of interviews in the first couple of weeks, and I met some head hunters. I just heard this phrase at a couple of interviews: 'You don't really have New York experience.' I'm like, 'Okay, what is this New York experience? I worked at IBM. I've got a degree in human resources. I'm so eager to work here, to prove myself.' And so I got rejected at a few places. I met these recruiters and I was just applying online, trying to find some shape or form where I could literally get a job. I think August 31st is when I arrived, and by the end of September, early October, I was like, maybe I should just flip burgers or work at Radio Shack. And I literally applied at RadioShack. I actually did. And I went into Macy's in Herald Square to apply for a job. I'm like, I need a job, no matter what it takes. I had $2,500 to my name, and I was married, and it was just such a lot of pressure—which is fine. And I started my first job at Macy's in Herald Square."

Ilana Golan: "And that's after IBM, right? It's after you worked at IBM."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "In fact, they asked me, 'Are you overqualified for being a contract recruiter for Christmas staff? And we'll pay you twelve bucks fifty cents an hour.' I said, 'I will take that, I'm so pumped.' They probably thought I was crazy—which, in hindsight, worked out for me. And I go there, and on Thursday—because it was a temp role, only for two months—I got a call from a startup that I'd interviewed with, and they offered me a job in human resources, an HR specialist, paying $50,000 a year. I'm like, that's amazing, and I got my first job. So I left, I started in HR. I was doing admin stuff—just payroll, typing up letters—and I wanted to be more strategic. I just really wasn't enjoying that particular role. And then one of the head hunters that I had known when I was looking for a job and speaking with head hunters, I reached out to him, and he said, 'Why don't you become a head hunter?' So I said, 'Okay, what does that really mean? I understand recruiting as a part of human resources, but what does this really mean?' He says, 'Oh, well, come to my office.' So I go into his office—beautiful office on Park Avenue—and I see a lot of people on the phones. It's a high floor. And he makes me sit down and gives me this big booklet. It has all the names—I still remember—hedge funds, investment banks. And I'm kind of mesmerized, like, look at how many jobs we have in technology that you could work on, and you can make so much commission. I said, 'Okay, how does that work?' He explained the whole thing, and I was sort of mesmerized. I'm like, 'Okay, I think my career could go somewhere there.' And he offered me a job. I met him a few times. So I started in technology recruiting, for back office. That's really how my career started, in 2006. So I go in, and I'm really pumped, and I realize the three people sitting next to me are working on the same jobs that I'm working on. So I'm like, okay, there are probably a lot of people working all the same jobs here. We had access to CareerBuilder, Dice, Monster.com, and we were just getting all these CVs—people who are looking for jobs, or people who have not had jobs for months or sometimes even longer—and you're just literally sending these CVs out to clients all day. And I said, okay, how do I differentiate myself? And I said, okay, let's see, I have a director here, and I'm going to start cold calling people, because nobody else seemed to be doing that—they were afraid of the phone. So I took that route, and I started cold calling individuals. That's really how it started."

Ilana Golan: "And I want to stop here for a second, for the listeners to understand the question, because that question—how can I differentiate—is so, so, so fundamental. And I would say it was always fundamental, and today, in the era of AI, when everybody is average, you're going to have to find a way to rise above the noise more than ever. So I want to go back to the story, but I want to make sure they all understand that. This is such a great point, right? That question alone."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "And there's always less competition on the harder path, so choose the harder path." *[laughter]*

Ilana Golan: "Exactly. Yeah. There's no traffic jam at the extra mile. So you're going and calling people. Let's go. So tell me—okay, how did that work?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Those results are pretty evident, because now, with this cold calling, I used to get a CV which was very different than what you would find online or from somebody who was actively looking. And I started getting interviews."

Ilana Golan: "But wait—you probably also got rejections, right?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Yes, of course. That is part of the parcel, right?"

Ilana Golan: "So how did you cope with that? How did you continue calling despite the rejection or the disconnect?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "I used to ask people to meet me. I think that was another differentiator, which was nothing—people weren't doing that, because you're working on a fairly small draw, and all somebody wanted to do was make a placement. That's really what they were thinking. And I was thinking the long game, even then. I was in the long game. I said, I want to build a relationship. I want to see who this person is behind the phone. So I used to make an effort where I'd say, 'Hey, could I come and meet you?' And even then, suppers were expensive, and for me on a very small draw—but I made my way around New York. I started going and meeting these individuals. They're like, 'Oh, well, this person's coming to meet me.' And sometimes they used to come to the office also. So I started building a bit of a track record, knowing people. In fact, I still remember I was on a bus coming in from Queens, going to the subway station, and I saw these two people, and they had these Bloomberg cards on them with their names. And I started speaking with them. I'm like, 'Hi, my name is—" *[laughter]* "—I'm in technology. What do you do?' I'm like, 'Whatever it takes, just get it done.'"

Ilana Golan: "Yeah."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "So while I was doing that, I started cold calling individuals in companies that we had these directories for, and I started getting people in accounting and finance, and I started sending them to the accounting and finance department. And even after eight months of being really successful at my job, I was actually given a pink sheet that said you'll be fired in four weeks unless you make another placement in technology, because you're in the technology vertical."

Ilana Golan: "So, for the listeners—you're going above and beyond, you're opening all these incredible doors, but because you didn't place that specific role, you're basically almost fired. You have four weeks."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "And now I'm thinking, okay, I know this model doesn't work, and someday—I believe I'm going to have my own firm where this will not happen."

Ilana Golan: "You're already thinking that. That's incredible."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "I'm like, I will. But now I have to lure myself, where I just went into CareerBuilder, Monster, and found these tech CVs, and I made a placement. I made a placement that probably saved my job back then. And then, lucky enough for me, I got head hunted—literally about fifteen months into the job—by another search firm. They had heard about me from a hedge fund."

Ilana Golan: "And I want to stop here for a second again, because I want the listeners to understand: all of these—or most of these—jobs, or opportunities, only come from the hidden market. Don't assume they're going to come from some job boards or from hiring, you know, like job boards or whatever. It's really who thinks about you when you're not in the room, and who brings the relevant opportunities to you. So again, be really strategic about it. Manu, I love that. So they approached you because you're somehow well known for what you do."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Literally, I found out afterwards that this hedge fund that I was also working for now and finding them talent, was really good friends with this individual at a search firm, and said, 'Oh, you should hire this guy. He's driven, he seems really good, showing us really good candidates.' Unknown to me. So I went to another search firm, where I had the opportunity to build a hedge fund practice. So now it was me, and I could literally do technology, I could do accounting and finance, or I could do front office—which is what I wanted to do."

Ilana Golan: "Tell us about—for people who don't know—front office. What do you mean by front office? Do you mean hiring?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Front office would also be technologists, right, who are really working with the traders to build technologies for the traders to train better. But for me, it was the traders themselves—the portfolio managers. So I realized this is where the most value would be, where I could see the difference: I hire a portfolio manager into a hedge fund, and once this person is successful, I know the sort of impact this individual has had at the firm."

Ilana Golan: "So this is interesting, Manu. You understand where the value is created, and you want to move as close as possible to where the value is created, because you know that's where the money is. Am I reading it correctly?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Absolutely. Exactly. I just wanted to make the most impact, and I started working towards that. That's exactly what happened. And one of the key moments for me was—and I always say luck plays a big role for all of us, no matter what career you choose—clearly, I would say this is one of my inspiring, life-changing stories I'd like to share. I had a candidate that I cold called at a bank. This is 2007. And we all know the financial crisis that happened in 2008. This individual interviewed at a hedge fund back then and was given a seven-figure salary, like a couple of million dollars. And here I am thinking, wow, this is going to be a significant fee, but more importantly, I've really made a PM hire now. Like, I have made it, right? But I couldn't be more wrong, because the candidate did not accept the offer. Now, I was doing contingency recruiting, which means I get paid nothing, right? But again, I was thinking the long game. I took that candidate out for dinner. I'm still very close friends with him. And I'll go through the journey, because all I wanted to do was—now I realized that I can do this, there's proof of concept that I could hire a portfolio manager. So this person stayed back at his bank, and that bank went belly up. Without naming names, he went to another bank afterwards. I built his team at the new bank that he was in, doing proprietary trading. A few years later, he started a hedge fund that I invested in, and our relationship just grew, and we are really close friends now."

Ilana Golan: "Oh my God, that's an amazing story. Thinking long term."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "That was one of the most inspiring things for me, because here I could have said, 'Oh my goodness, I just lost this fee.' But I'm like, no, it's not the point. The point is never the fee. The point is success and the connection."

Ilana Golan: "And the connection, the trust that you're building."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Trust is parallel, right? Because you want to be in a position where you are advising these individuals as somebody who knows where the market is for talent. And also for career advice—they are always looking for career advice. And they also want to know who's doing well, right? They want to be connected to talent like themselves. And then I worked at a search firm for a couple of years, and one of my clients was a hedge fund where I was showing portfolio managers. And the founder called me one day: 'Hey, I'd like to meet you. I'm looking for a head of recruiting. Do you know somebody?' I said okay—at that time I was doing retained work, where people pay you a retainer when you work on a mandate. So I go and see him, and he said, 'I have never seen talent that you've shown me from anyone else. I really like you, I wanted to meet you, and I would love you to join this hedge fund as head recruiter.' So if you think about it, I was looking for a job when I arrived in this country, but once I started, I actually never looked for a job afterwards."

Ilana Golan: "Yeah, exactly. Like everybody just opened the doors. That's amazing."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "They opened the doors. And I wasn't sure if I wanted to do that, because it was a startup fund. But I said, you know what, I really have nothing to lose. I've been taking risk all my life. I'm going to go for it. And I did. And I worked there for almost a decade, at a multi-billion-dollar fund. Saw it grow—hiring portfolio managers, key leadership—and a lot of the staff is still there."

Ilana Golan: "Before you move on—I think we are talking about portfolio managers a lot, and they're the ones... maybe describe the role for a second. They're the ones that are making the bets, right? What makes a portfolio manager good versus somebody that isn't good, or mediocre? What makes a difference? And maybe just for the listeners, what do they do day-to-day?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "They're obviously managing risk. They're doing research. I think what differentiates a good portfolio manager from another one is strong risk discipline. I would say strong risk discipline. Position sizing—how they size risk—and also how composed they are during drawdowns. A drawdown is when, invariably, someone will lose money at some point. But how do they keep their composure? I think it's really important."

Ilana Golan: "Yeah. How do they bounce back from that? How do you assess that when you're interviewing them—before we continue with the story? How do you assess if somebody will freak out and start panicking, or somebody can actually ride the wave? Because I think that's kind of what you're saying, right? If something's not working well, am I going to flip, not sleep at night, and start selling like crazy or make rash decisions, versus just ride the wave for a second to decide what to do next. Am I right?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "You're underwriting a process, not a fraud. When hedge funds are hiring PMs, they want to see what the process for this particular portfolio manager is. Track records are important, but really they're betting on the individual and how good the process is. I think that's really important. And some of the things are very rudimentary in a way. You don't want to hire folks who change jobs every couple of years. You want to avoid that. But there's always a story why somebody is switching jobs every few years, and that becomes a bit of a pattern. So it's, again, pattern recognition. And the interview processes are obviously very intense, and they've been doing this for a long time. But for me in particular, I'm always looking for individuals who are passive and not looking for a job. It's very rare to come across an individual who is at the top percentile but is looking for a job—and that's just really luck, quite frankly, because they are head-down working. So you sort of have to cold call them, meet them, talk about the role that you're working on. A lot of times they will give a referral, if they trust you and like you enough, and if you're giving them good advice for where they are. A lot of times I have actually walked away from people where I didn't want to represent them. It's a two-way process."

Ilana Golan: "Yeah."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Because I always firmly believe, when I am introducing someone to my client, my reputation is on the line as well."

Ilana Golan: "This is your reputation."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Exactly, on the line. And of course, there will be people who will not perform well at interviews, or it's not a match. I want to make sure I minimize that as much as I can. And I think that's super important. So you should have your own process, but I also think these individuals that I'm meeting—I also evaluate them myself, to try and see what the push factors are. Is it just about the money? One of the mistakes that people do make is overpay for talent, because you're looking at a track record and you say, 'Oh, this person is making X amount of money year on year,' and the person's like, 'You want to 2x my comp, or 3x my comp.' I think one shouldn't just throw money at a problem. One should have individuals joining them for the right reasons. It shouldn't be just because I'm coming in for the money. Usually it doesn't work out anyway. At some point it's going to be broken, because the person didn't really come in for the right reasons. And when a person's not coming in for the right reasons, they're not going to perform."

Ilana Golan: "I want us to dive back in later for how you assess. I think that's going to be really, really interesting. I want to go back to your story. You're joining this big hedge fund. I'm sure you're learning so much, because I think that's what makes you really special, right, Manu? Because you've done the technology, you've done the HR, you've done the hiring—you've done kind of all the different roles. And now you learn hedge funds too, which makes you really special when you need to hire for a hedge fund. But you're in this hedge fund, I'm sure you're learning a lot. Were there some interesting moments—like usually we have these either failures or challenges that are actually teaching us the most. Were there some moments there that were big lessons for you?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Oh yeah, quite a few. I think one that comes to my mind is—the fund that I joined was a systematic hedge fund, all quants, which means all trading is done electronically. The old models—there is no human interference. And for me to work there... I was very lucky just interacting with individuals who have a bachelor's or master's, in most cases a PhD, in computer science, applied mathematics—distinguished backgrounds. It was just such a learning experience for me personally. I learned a lot, but I also realized the value of high EQ."

Ilana Golan: "Tell me more."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "IQ, amazing. Emotional—very, very important. Extremely strategic. How you interact with these individuals is going to really set you apart. When you are internal, and I am calling a candidate outside, or I'm using head hunters as well, they are going to look at me and say, 'Okay, he works at this hedge fund, of course he's going to say only the good things about them. He's not going to tell me anything else.' So I, being the head of recruiting, was actually at a disadvantage sometimes, where people would meet me, they would take my call because I worked at the hedge fund, but they'll always be like, 'He's not going to tell me anything negative about this hedge fund where he works.' So I had to overcome that, and I did. And that's why—when people say a lot of hedge funds have internal recruiting teams, why do they need head hunters outside? I think that's something that's asked a lot these days. Because, yes, you are internally in the recruiting team, BD, you're managing relationships, sometimes you're hiring yourself. But being on the outside, there is the trust factor, because people are like, 'This person's seen a lot on the outside, they can advise me better than someone internally.' There's always that element. So I always say, I worked at a hedge fund, before that I was a head hunter, and I have my own recruiting firm—so the experience is pretty significant here. That way, I connect with the talent quite well, because I have all these stories and experiences I could share with them too. And it's fun."

Ilana Golan: "It's incredible. And I want to translate for a second what you just said, to the listeners, and make sure they really understand that, because this is so critical in any conversation that you're going to have—whether it's an interview, a client, whatever it is. If you can start guessing what their basic objections are, or what their biases are, or what are the things that are scaring them in their head—and the most important things, or maybe the riskiest things, are always the things that are unspoken, right? It's the things that somebody has in their head but they will not say it." *[laughter]* "And if you're not just going to squish it, they're going to always have that in their head. And I think that's just so important, that you found a way to make that special. Am I understanding this correctly?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "That is true, yes. And again, playing the long game—" *[sighs]* "—trust and reputation is everything in this business. But I think also being an advisor, just like an agent. Because these individuals can be making some—mid-seven figures at times, eight figures—so they've done really well in life, right? And they are usually young. So sometimes they ask me for advice: 'Hey, how should I invest personally? What do you think?' And we'll have those conversations too. So they are looking for intellect in an individual. They don't want to meet somebody and say, 'Hey, I just want to go out and have an amazing lunch and a drink'—they can afford that themselves, really. They also value that time. So they want to have a good intellectual conversation. They also want to know what a person does—do you play sports, do you do any charity work, what's your outlook on life? I've had individuals ask me, 'Hey, I want to propose to my girlfriend, what advice do you have for me?' Or, God forbid, sometimes I've had individuals who like, 'Can you help me with an appointment with a doctor? I really need to see a really good doctor for my spouse or a child,' or health-related stuff. So you really have to become the agent. I always say, think about this as an agent. Be the Jerry Maguire. Absolutely love what you do, and truly help people without expecting something in return."

Ilana Golan: "So let me go there for a second, because I think—you've been in this hedge fund, and eventually you decide to start your own recruiting, and this is where you become even more of that kind of an agent. Take me there for a second, to that decision of, 'I'm going to go on my own.' And there's a scary piece here. Take me there for a second."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "For me, working was amazing—fun, learning a lot, it was just fantastic, really was. But I wanted to recruit for outside of systematic strategies. I wanted the ability to also help hedge funds—smaller funds—raise money. That's another area that I wanted to get into, and I couldn't really do that when I was working at that fund. And I always had an entrepreneur mindset. That's why I really worked really well at that hedge fund, because even when I was working internally as an employee, when I was interviewing people or hiring individuals, I was making sure, as if I'm the owner. I always had that mindset. Think about this as your own money that you're spending on talent, or somebody you're interviewing. That's really how I always thought about it. So for my own evolution, I knew I had to take that risk. And I always say, have no fear."

Ilana Golan: "But take me there. You're thinking of this. I assume they pay you pretty well, but you want to go on your own. And sometimes fear can be numbing. Was there a moment like, 'Am I kidding? What am I doing?' Take me—how did you go through that fear?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Have self-belief. Be a dreamer. Just go out there. I mean, the fear is always there. It's there even today. You're like, 'Oh my goodness, what did I just do six years ago?' But that was six years ago." *[laughter]* "I left that job and I started my own firm. That was six years ago. But yes, I think you have to have a vision, and more importantly, knowing oneself. I was always confident that I could survive, but the question was not survival, it was always—I want to thrive. I want to be the best version of myself. So for me, it was really important that I did this. If I did not do it, I would have regretted it. Failure was not an option. And failure is, again, part of life. It will happen. But it's really how you evolve as an individual from failure. That, I think, was important, and that's why I took that risk."

Ilana Golan: "So tell me about the first clients, because sometimes that's really hard, right? There's stress, and, can I do this, and can I survive on this? Take me there for a second. What were some hard moments, Manu, that shook you a little bit, and what did they teach you?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "One of the hardest moments for me was when I left the hedge fund and started my firm. A lot of the phone calls that were always returned earlier were not being returned anymore." *[laughter]* "So you realize very quickly, it was not you all the time—it was the seat that you were in." *[laughter]*

Ilana Golan: "So good."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "That's something. Early on, some of the individuals who used to call me, or return my calls, they're just not there. But then, also having said that, there were so many incredible people who also helped me and supported me, and they still do. I think the best advice I would say is: don't think of having multiple clients. When you start a business, think of starting with a client, but do so well—diversify within your own client—that you knock their socks off. So be targeted. I think that's something which is super important. For me, I was really focused, and it's still very much the same mentality, because the grass is always greener on the other side."

Ilana Golan: "So tell me a little bit about that starting journey, because everybody's freaking out—we have a lot of people listening to the show, they're trying to think, should I go with entrepreneurship, should I not? And it's scary. Can I pay the bills? What if it doesn't work? What if no clients will say yes? So take me there for a second."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "When I started—a lot of the hiring was being done remotely. So I was like, 'Wow, okay, the timing couldn't have been better, or worse, but we'll just find out.' Quite frankly, the challenge was really during COVID, because when I started the business, the in-person meetings were not there—few and far in between. So that was a challenge, and that was scary. But again, it worked out. Luck had to be on your side. It just took us a couple of months. Luckily, I also had staff with me, and we had a really good first year of the business. So we have never looked back. But I think the challenge, to your earlier question—with having a new client, or building new clients—is, again, the trust factor and market intelligence. You want to speak to your client as an advisor as well. You want to advise them on a particular candidate, you want to advise them what's happening in the broader market. You want to add value in multiple areas stemming from talent itself. And you also want to tell your client, if you have an opinion about a candidate which is negative, don't try and not share that with your client. Share your concerns. They appreciate that. Like I said, walking away from talent—I've done that, where I'm like, 'I don't wish to represent this individual. I don't feel comfortable.' Or sometimes, even in the process, where I feel a candidate is not acting in good faith, I will actually tell my client, 'I have reservations about this candidate for these reasons. So you may want to dig deeper, or walk away.'"

Ilana Golan: "Amazing. So what eventually made—and when you say client, I want to make sure that the listeners understand, you actually mean the hedge funds that will eventually want you, and then, once they say yes, find us a portfolio manager, now you're going to look for individuals to match. But what made those people actually accept your phone calls again? Now you don't have the seat, you don't have the big reputation of a billion-dollar hedge fund behind you. So what makes people now take those calls, and how do you create a hook that is good enough for them to say, 'You know what, Manu, go find us a portfolio manager'?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "I would say I was actually lucky enough—even when I left the firm, I knew hedge funds wanted to work with me. Some wanted to hire me internally. So they were more than happy to give me a chance to go and recruit for them in a particular area. That's really how it started. So I was fortunate enough that I got that chance. But again, you get that chance, you have to build on it. So I didn't really have to go out and look for business as such. That was given, right off the bat. But then the hard work is to sustain it, and building the track record right from the start."

Ilana Golan: "So tell me—if somebody's like, I'm sure some people are listening and saying, 'What on earth is this role that makes millions of dollars?' Can you explain to somebody, how does somebody become a portfolio manager? What kind of experience do they have? What kind of education do they have? How do they become a portfolio manager? And maybe I want to tap a little bit into that risk discipline that you talked about, in the process. What makes them great? What kind of experience, or emotional intelligence—what made them better? But first, how did they even become a portfolio manager?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "So I'll explain to you. For systematic portfolio managers, quants—where I worked, at a systematic hedge fund—they build models out of data. They would have a computer science, physics, or mathematics degree, and they love making models. And then these models are translated into automated strategies that they make. Jim Simons—Renaissance Technologies, the late founder of RenTech—was a pioneer, and there are multiple other funds now that do similar work. First is education, and then you get into either technology, and then you're hired by a systematic hedge fund, or you apply to systematic hedge funds, get in there as a quantitative researcher, learn how to build models, be successful, then you're given a chance to be a portfolio manager. That's on the systematic side. On your discretionary side, again, these individuals go to a great university, they go into investment banking or private equity, and then they are head-hunted out there by hedge funds through their early programs. And that's really—people love investing. What a portfolio manager does, in a market-neutral way, is make money irrespective of where the market is going. That's why you're market neutral. But you really truly want to be obsessed with what you do, and most of the successful PMs are really the ones who love what they do and are obsessed with investing."

Ilana Golan: "Yeah. And maybe take us a little bit behind the closed doors of, how do these hedge funds evaluate them? Because it's not about the skills, it's not just about where they studied—it has to be about more than that, right? Some of it is maybe results, if they do have a lot of experience. But what if they don't? How does somebody get a chance, get into that?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "For experienced hires, they are not just looking at a CV—they're really looking at their career, where they are, what the process they have. Are they a good fit? Are they looking to maybe leave for the right reasons? And how have they performed over the last few years—not just, 'Hey, they've made money,' but what were the reasons for it? Was it just pure luck? You have to dig into the process. Or was there significant alpha they have that they can translate into the next shop? So they are always looking for that deep-dive info when they're interviewing a candidate. It's not just a CV or just an education—they're working a lot more than that. How technical someone is, how have they hired the team, are they going to be a talent magnet when they join us? Do other people want to work for them? Are they going to be an amazing role model for the future? So for hedge funds hiring a PM—or even an analyst, for that matter—they're making sure that there's a high chance this analyst becomes a portfolio manager later on, or this portfolio manager has the ability to hire really well and train individuals under them. That's really important, very critical."

Ilana Golan: "It's fascinating, Manu. Do you have maybe a sneak peek into your world, of some question or questions or behaviors that you found that actually give you a good window into who might be successful or not?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "I think one of the ones that really works for me is, 'Hey, tell me, what was your biggest drawdown? Where did you lose the most money?' And a lot of times people don't remember. And to me, you're like, how could you not know when you had your biggest drawdown? I'll always step in on that question." *[laughter]* "Surprised—sometimes they don't have an answer. And, 'You made money last year—what's your realized Sharpe ratio?' They should have this answer immediately. And if they don't, I always had a question. So yeah, I use that." *[laughter]*

Ilana Golan: "I love that, because I ask people, 'What was one of the hardest, most challenging situations that you were in, and how did you get out of it?' And if all they have is some kind of, 'I don't know, this guy didn't like me,' or whatever, I'm like, oh, wait, you did not face anything in life, so you're not going to do well."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Yeah, I totally hear you. Also, when people are not doing well—the victim mentality. I try to stay away from people with a victim mentality. 'Oh, I was under this person, it didn't work out.' They always have an excuse. It's never their fault. I'd rather meet somebody—"

Ilana Golan: "It's never their fault." *[laughter]*

Manu Sai Bakshe: "It's never their fault. Somebody just own up and say, 'You know what, I made a mistake. I could have researched this better.' That's a much better way to acknowledge your own self—having the ability to say, 'Yeah, I made a mistake, and that's okay.' But there's always this, 'Oh, the markets were bad.' Okay. Now the markets were really good—'I was on the other side of the trade.' Oh, come on." *[laughter]*

Ilana Golan: "And what do you think are the biggest mistakes on the firm side, actually, when they're hiring at these highest levels? What kind of mistakes do you see the hedge funds make?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Overpaying for talent is one. Second is, sometimes people get overlooked, which I believe—for reasons which could be either what college they went to, perhaps, or they didn't do well a particular year, and then it's hard to sell negative performance. I totally agree, but I think everyone deserves a second chance. And a lot of times, these people do reinvent themselves and are successful. So I think one should not just look at, 'Oh my goodness, this individual was so successful last year or last two years,' or, 'This person was successful, but now they're not successful in the previous year.' I think one should look into it a bit more deeply than just saying, 'Maybe not a right fit for us.'"

Ilana Golan: "Yeah. That's amazing, that this is what you get to do, Manu. And I think, since then—you also get to live an incredible life. You travel all the time. We met in India, cycling." *[laughter]* "Like, so crazy."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "That was fun. That was exceptional."

Ilana Golan: "And do you think there's something that maybe most people don't necessarily know, but that you went through that made you into the person that you are today?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Again, I don't want to be the victim." *[laughter]* "No, I think being in a contingency recruiting environment early on in my career sort of made me realize what not to do. And I think that was really important for me, to have that experience where relationships weren't really given a lot of credit, and one was sort of thought having volume over quality. To me, I think that was really important, to go through that and learn from that experience. On the other hand, I also say—if you truly believe in your ability to do something really well, one should leave no stone unturned in pursuing your dream, or what you really want to do."

Ilana Golan: "Yeah. No matter what happens, no matter how many setbacks you get, you keep trying and eventually things will work out. But just don't give up."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Don't give up."

Ilana Golan: "How do you not give up, though, Manu? How do you not give up when it's hard, or when there's rejection, or fear of, maybe I'm not going to make the paycheck, or this is not working out? How do you not give up?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Well, I think one should have the intelligence where they realize, this is not the right job or career for me, and you move on. But if you're doing the right thing—which is, things don't work out because of XYZ reasons out of your control—then you don't give up, if you are doing the right thing. So for me, I didn't give up, because I had portfolio managers who were getting offers. Now, if I couldn't close them—and sometimes you don't close them, the clients can close them, it happened—but at least there's activity. So I knew there was a proof of concept. Now, if I was not even going to have a PM who was going to get an offer, or PMs not speaking to me, I shouldn't be here." *[laughter]* "Then yes, I should be doing something else. So those setbacks will always be there. If I can be right 55 percent of the time, that's a great benchmark for me." *[laughter]*

Ilana Golan: "So, not just in the casino, but even otherwise—do you have a habit or something that helps you get back into flow? And you remind me of a question we had on our YouTube. Usually I answer it at the end of the conversation, but we can kind of answer it a little bit together. So Robin asked, how do you keep going when you feel defeated? I have my own things that help me, but I wonder what it is for you. Is there something that you do, like, 'I need to hike, I need to get outside'? I have certain things that I need to do to take care of myself and put my own oxygen mask on. What do you do, Manu?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Well, I work out. I work out six days a week, if not seven. I do an activity every morning. Also, when I wake up in the morning, I don't look at my phone. I don't look at my phone for the first 20 or 30 minutes. I give time for myself—maybe mindful meditation, or thinking of gratitude. I think we should all wake up and be sort of grateful that we get to wake up. Just simple things. I think that helps me. I don't let negative thoughts come into me, even if they are there. I just sort of avoid them—it's just a thought, get rid of it. And, again, you can't control everything, but what you can control is how you feel. So I choose to feel positive most of the time, if not all the time. I want to laugh. I always say, I'm unbeatable. I can't be beat. I'm just going to keep going as long as I can. So that, I think, has really helped me."

Ilana Golan: "Yeah. But what taught you this? What made you like this? Usually there's a moment that needed to teach us to be like this."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "No, I think that happened in childhood for me. I grew up in India, in a very comfortable household. My father had a job, my mother had a job, and they were self-made, my parents. We were very comfortable in India. We had a house, we had cars, and we had help. Everything was really pristine. But when I was a teenager—I was 12 years old—my dad was fired from his job. And financially, we had a very tough time. And I could see how they were holding it together, and we were really happy, and they shielded us from it. It was really beautiful to see how my parents reacted to that. But that never left me—where things changed in the household, whether we didn't have cars anymore, but everybody was still smiling. It was all very positive. But that sort of had an effect on me, of how things can be taken away from you pretty quickly. That drove me, even at a very young age, to be an entrepreneur. I always had that mindset at that age. So even in college, in Scotland, I had a side hustle. I used to go to people's houses on the Penny Saver and pick up all the things that they didn't want—literally at a pound, or pennies, or a few pounds—and I would sell them to students." *[laughter]* "I had that business even as a student. It was very successful. And part-time jobs, like we all do, right? It was just hustle—simple hustle. I always say, it's such a valuable thing to do, which is the ability to hustle. And I've always had that. As a teenager, that was a life-changing moment for me."

Ilana Golan: "Yeah. That's incredible. And maybe I'll—I want to end for a second with, if you would go back to maybe your younger self, whether it is that kid in India, or when you just hustled and found a job at Macy's and nobody else... What would you wish somebody told you earlier on?"

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Don't worry, it'll all work out. It always does. It's supposed to work out in a certain way. So just don't be scared. Everything's happening for a reason. You're going to learn from it. And it's all written—it's going to happen." *[laughter]* "Just believe in it. No matter what happens, just believe in yourself. So if I told myself, 20 years ago, I would have just said, 'Yeah, you'll be fine, my friend.' And that's what I tell other people too. Just keep doing what you're doing, and don't fret the small stuff. I think that's very important. And I'll go back to this—don't fret the small stuff, which means don't gossip. Don't think of what the other person's doing. Just focus on yourself. So I always find it really interesting when people ask me, 'What's your competition?' I said, 'I have no idea. I'm just working and competing with myself. I want to be the better version of myself every single day.' So I really don't know what the competition is. And I'm sure it exists, and it's amazing—I have no idea. I'm just focusing on myself and how I can be better every single day."

Ilana Golan: "Wow. And so, if somebody's listening—where do they find you? What do you want them to know? Tell us more."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "Well, Preeminence Advisors—you could always email me. I have a LinkedIn. I don't have a lot of social media presence, but that's the easiest way to reach out to me. And, you know, if you want to talk about charity, reach out to me. That's a big part of my life. Education, environment, and healthcare—the three causes that I'm very passionate about. So if anybody wants to reach out to me on any of these three causes, I'm the guy."

Ilana Golan: "Incredible. And we'll put your links down below the podcast. But Manu, this was so, so, so good. Thank you for sharing and teaching us and all the insights. That's incredible."

Manu Sai Bakshe: "My pleasure."

Ilana Golan, host of the Leap Academy Podcast: "Hey, I hope you really enjoyed this conversation. And I want to now answer the beautiful question we received from Robin on the Leap Academy with Ilana Golan YouTube channel. So first of all, don't forget, add your questions there. Go to the Leap Academy with Ilana Golan YouTube channel and add your questions there, because you have a chance that I'm going to pick your question and answer it here. And today we're going to answer the question from Robin: how do you keep going when you feel defeated? Such a beautiful question. So first of all, share this if anybody in your life needs to hear this. There's a lot of people going through some really hard things right now, so please do share this. Now, the way I look at it, for me these are four points. So the very first thing is to recognize the fact that something is not okay. And I lived in a place where I used to just tuck emotions—tuck, tuck, tuck the emotions and hide from them. And the truth is, this is when they come up at, like, 3:00 in the morning and just gush you with this anxiety and fear, and all the feelings are just coming in the middle of the night. So first of all, just start recognizing when those feelings come. Acknowledge them. It's almost like a puppy: if you give it attention, it will go away, but if you don't give it attention, it'll keep on nagging. So give it attention. Say, 'Oh, how do I feel? Where do I feel it? Oh, okay, I feel it here. Okay, I can now cope with it.' But recognize it. The other thing is, find your peace. For me, it's hiking. I need to hike almost every day to find my peace. From time to time, something will happen, I can't do it, etc. But in general, I know that I'm a better human, a better mom, a better business leader, a better spouse, whatever it is, when I hike. So find your peace, whatever it is—meditation, journaling, dancing, yoga, whatever that is for you, find it. Because once you have your peace, you have a place to anchor yourself. The other thing is, surround yourself with people that are lifting you up. There's always going to be the people that suck you down. And sometimes the hardest thing, when we want to chase success, is to let go of the people that maybe are not serving us anymore, and start finding the circles that will lift us up. And the other thing is, a jar cannot read its own label. You have to surround yourself with people that will shine the light on where you're great. The last thing that I'll say is, as driven people, we're kind of sometimes bad about reminding ourselves about all the amazing things that we've done. We sometimes are really good about reminding ourselves of the things where we failed, or we didn't make it, and the rejection. So be very mindful, almost every day—if you can't do it every day, that's amazing, but remind yourself to celebrate the little wins. Remind yourself of the things you did achieve, remind yourself that the things you did work well, because it's so easy to be all consumed by the failure, by the defeat, by the rejection, and it becomes all consuming and it takes you on the downward spiral. So force yourself to say, 'No, no, no, no. What did I achieve in the last year? What did I achieve in the last five years? What did I achieve in the last 10 years? What have I achieved throughout my life that I'm so proud of?' And that's going to help you go through these emotional roller coasters. And again, I hope this podcast is helping you as well. So keep on binging it. See that other people are going through some really, really hard times as well. And the only difference is, when you can chase your dream and you can continue when other people are stopping, that's when you're going to live a life everybody else can only dream of. So, let's go. Have an incredible rest of the week. Lots of love."